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  • #16
    Originally posted by Blind Spot View Post
    I think this is what I remember reading.

    Though, I never understood why this requires degreeing the cams since shouldn't the tensioner take up any increase in slack and keep everything aligned? I know most chain valvetrains have some slop unlike their geared counterparts, but does the fraction of a mm in headgasket really equate to enough slop in the valvetrian to warrant a change in cam timing?
    You aren't allowing for the slack in the chain on both sides (front and back), and then retarding to make "0" slack.

    The Gen1 bike's cam #'s changed (retarded) 2 degrees for .007" in gasket thickness as compared to the R1... using the Race gasket will change appx another 2 degrees.... not setting it up properly would be really stupid.
    ivansperformanceproducts.com

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Ivan View Post
      You aren't allowing for the slack in the chain on both sides (front and back), and then retarding to make "0" slack.

      The Gen1 bike's cam #'s changed (retarded) 2 degrees for .007" in gasket thickness as compared to the R1... using the Race gasket will change appx another 2 degrees.... not setting it up properly would be really stupid.
      Cool, I thought about it some more and I see where the difference occurs.

      Since tension is only applied to one side moving the head down rotates the cams in the direction of the tensioner. I just had to envision what would happen if you were to keep increasing tension while locking the crank sprocket and moving the head way down...the cams would be rotating independent of the crank.

      Got it!
      Super Kinky Fuel Line Mod - Unkink your Fuel pipe on the cheap.

      http://yamahafz1oa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=105290

      Businesses love a working server, don't trust India, see an IT admin and get rid of it.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Ivan View Post
        Using the R1 race gasket will give a compression ratio around 13.3-1.... this will still run well on 93 octane pump gas.

        The FZ-1 stock gasket is appx .032" thick and the R1 race gasket is .020".

        Using the R1 stock gasket will give 12.4-1 compression...

        Lowering the head (using a thinner gasket or milling) will cause the cams to need to be re-degreed due to adding more slack in the cam chain.... the FZ-1 has slotted sprockets, so no need to buy a set.

        This is the easiest way to increase compression... for the rpm range that this engine runs, the added compression will not cause the powerband to end early.

        Using the gasket and setting the cams to 107in/101ex will give great results... using 105in/100ex will give better midrange at the expense of some top end.

        Stock cam timing is 105/105...

        105 on the exhaust doesn't really add any top end as compared to 100ex, but costs some midrange.... this is another area that this engine is detuned.

        The good power cam timing window for 5 valve Yamahas is pretty narrow...

        Increasing compression will give more power across the entire rpm range, but in order to make the most increase across the range, an ignition module becomes necessary as well as re-degreeing the cams.

        A Yosh full system is a necessity as well due to the need for the longer header tubes to make the midrange.

        Might as well clean all the valves and replace all the valve seals while you are in there.


        Ivan
        Awesome info Ivan. Although I was hoping it would be less complex, sleds its easy take some off the head, new gaskets, done. You can also add a thicker base gasket to raise port timing. If I'm gonna go thru all that work and expense I'll find a way to shove a 3rd gen R1 engine in. I am a fabricator by trade and have a pretty fancy tig welder...


        08 FZ1 GYTR slip on,16T front,GYTR Filter, No Cat (stock)
        My Sig didn't comply with FZ1OA's rules so it was removed.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by sebastian f7 View Post
          As far as running cooler it may not directly run cooler but those 2 strokers will smoke down a motor in a heck of a hurry as they don't have the computer capabilities to adjust for pre- ignition/ detonation so I just run em on premium to help prevent that.

          Computer?? Whats that for? If its runnin hot rejet it to richen it up. I'm old school and pretty ignorant about new tech computer stuff but I think the only variable on a two stroke would be fuel injection. There's no variable valve timing and advancing the spark to ignite the fuel charge to maintain a controlled burn instead of detonation may help a little but the peak cylinder pressure will still be higher.

          Ivan,
          Am I all wet here? Please critique/correct my logic


          Force of habit running premium. I ran regular for a few tanks didn't change my mileage at all... I don't follow any of that other higher mileage crap.
          I studied up on ASE specs for fuel/combustion etc. I know how it works but I'm stubborn in my ways.

          Who said anything about a thinner gasket?

          This wasn't me.... but it's the easier, much cheaper way to achieve the same result.


          On sleds you literally cut material off the head to reduce combustion chamber size, dont know if thats possible on these. Hence the question.

          I'm sure it can be done but why spend the extra cash. How much of an increase do you want/need? I think things will get complicated too. Take Ivan's advice. He's got the numbers and experience!

          Oh and an average N/A engine only takes in about 50% of the air it needs to efficiently burn all the fuel it uses. Hence why turbo rigs get better mileage when you dont really use the turbo to its potential.

          Perhaps you worded that wrong.
          The stoich ratio of air and fuel always has to remain close to 14.7:1. but due to the short amount of time involved for it to mix the mixture is never 100% homogenous. Too much oxygen and it runs lean and too hot. Too little oxygen then it's too rich but that's the better side to err on because it runs cooler.
          The real benefit of "boost" is that a smaller engine can make more HP by burning more fuel and oxygen at any given rpm than an unaspirated engine of the same displacement at the same rpm.
          Supercharger boost is relativel constant regardless of rpm. Turbo boost increases as rpm increases until it reaches the preset maximum boost and a wastegate opens to bleed off the extra boost.
          The amount of horsepower needed to maintain cruising speed is much less than when accelerating. Cruising in top gear at a relatively lower rpm, turbo boost is minimal (it is acting like a small unaspirated fuel sipping econo engine)....hence less fuel is required to maintain the proper stoich ratio.


          Therefore if you cram the same amount of air and fuel into a smaller space it should generate higher power... considering the correct octane.
          See above comments in red

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          • #20
            Originally posted by sebastian f7 View Post
            I was reading some info last night about the FZ and one of the things they said was the squish wasnt as tight as the R1. Leaving the compression ratio lower and performance down. I run mine on premium anyway since premium burns cooler. (I ride and work on a lot of 2 strokes so...) Has anyone had their head milled down and tightened up the squish on these things?
            Thats one or the simple and easy performance mods for sleds!
            It just dawned on me.....nobody mentioned the really really cheapest, easiest, fastest, mods to accelerate harder..........change the front sprocket to one with less teeth. Still want more? Increase the teeth on the rear sprocket!

            MPG and top end suffer but oh what a rush getting there! Good luck, have fun, but pick and choose the time and place wisely.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by old77zrider View Post
              It just dawned on me.....nobody mentioned the really really cheapest, easiest, fastest, mods to accelerate harder..........change the front sprocket to one with less teeth. Still want more? Increase the teeth on the rear sprocket!

              MPG and top end suffer but oh what a rush getting there! Good luck, have fun, but pick and choose the time and place wisely.
              I already have a 16t front. I only asked because of how simple, easy and cheap it is on a sled to modify squish. Thought it may be a relatively cheap and easy way to make more ponies. Ivan quickly pointed out that's not the case with the FIZ

              As far as running cooler it may not directly run cooler but those 2 strokers will smoke down a motor in a heck of a hurry as they don't have the computer capabilities to adjust for pre- ignition/ detonation so I just run em on premium to help prevent that.

              Computer?? Whats that for? If its runnin hot rejet it to richen it up. I'm old school and pretty ignorant about new tech computer stuff but I think the only variable on a two stroke would be fuel injection. There's no variable valve timing and advancing the spark to ignite the fuel charge to maintain a controlled burn instead of detonation may help a little but the peak cylinder pressure will still be higher.
              Many sleds are just that fuel injection and can help compensate for misfires etc
              Ivan,
              Am I all wet here? Please critique/correct my logic

              Force of habit running premium. I ran regular for a few tanks didn't change my mileage at all... I don't follow any of that other higher mileage crap.
              I studied up on ASE specs for fuel/combustion etc. I know how it works but I'm stubborn in my ways.

              Who said anything about a thinner gasket?

              This wasn't me.... but it's the easier, much cheaper way to achieve the same result.


              On sleds you literally cut material off the head to reduce combustion chamber size, dont know if thats possible on these. Hence the question.

              I'm sure it can be done but why spend the extra cash. How much of an increase do you want/need? I think things will get complicated too. Take Ivan's advice. He's got the numbers and experience!If you read some of the other thread I said it wasn't a route I was gonna go!

              Oh and an average N/A engine only takes in about 50% of the air it needs to efficiently burn all the fuel it uses. Hence why turbo rigs get better mileage when you dont really use the turbo to its potential.

              Perhaps you worded that wrong.
              The stoich ratio of air and fuel always has to remain close to 14.7:1. but due to the short amount of time involved for it to mix the mixture is never 100% homogenous. Too much oxygen and it runs lean and too hot. Too little oxygen then it's too rich but that's the better side to err on because it runs cooler.
              The real benefit of "boost" is that a smaller engine can make more HP by burning more fuel and oxygen at any given rpm than an unaspirated engine of the same displacement at the same rpm.
              Supercharger boost is relativel constant regardless of rpm. Turbo boost increases as rpm increases until it reaches the preset maximum boost and a wastegate opens to bleed off the extra boost.
              The amount of horsepower needed to maintain cruising speed is much less than when accelerating. Cruising in top gear at a relatively lower rpm, turbo boost is minimal (it is acting like a small unaspirated fuel sipping econo engine)....hence less fuel is required to maintain the proper stoich ratio.
              [COLOR="Blue"]On an average N/A engine the more you wind it up the less efficient it becomes pulling the proper amount of air to maintain the stoich mixture. The fuel map is changed to fix this.
              I'm not always the best at explaining things...
              08 FZ1 GYTR slip on,16T front,GYTR Filter, No Cat (stock)
              My Sig didn't comply with FZ1OA's rules so it was removed.

              Comment


              • #22
                Sebastion, your like me an old 2 stroke guy. You can't use any of the two stroke tricks on a 4 stroke motor as Ivan pointed out you will change your valve train geometry when milling a head. Because of the valves and cams on a 4 stroke you really have to abide by all of the normal 4 stroke rules for high performance. I wish we could buy a 1200cc two stroke motor putting out about 180RWHP. That would be light wieght and fly! Sound wicked too. I miss my two strokes!
                2008 BKing - First bike I have ever had. MSF course to the King.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by BKing View Post
                  Sebastion, your like me an old 2 stroke guy. You can't use any of the two stroke tricks on a 4 stroke motor as Ivan pointed out you will change your valve train geometry when milling a head. Because of the valves and cams on a 4 stroke you really have to abide by all of the normal 4 stroke rules for high performance. I wish we could buy a 1200cc two stroke motor putting out about 180RWHP. That would be light wieght and fly! Sound wicked too. I miss my two strokes!
                  Guess you haven't heard of Arctic Cat's new 800 HO :-D
                  160 ponies right out of the crate. Its eating Ski Poos 800r for breakfast
                  08 FZ1 GYTR slip on,16T front,GYTR Filter, No Cat (stock)
                  My Sig didn't comply with FZ1OA's rules so it was removed.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by sebastian f7 View Post
                    I already have a 16t front.
                    As far as running cooler it may not directly run cooler but those 2 strokers will smoke down a motor in a heck of a hurry as they don't have the computer capabilities to adjust for pre- ignition/ detonation so I just run em on premium to help prevent that.
                    [/COLOR][/SIZE]
                    BTW the GenII while fuel injected, does not have any way of detecting pre-ignition (no knock sensors etc). That said you are wasting your money running anything but regular unleaded on it unless you have done something to the engine (raised compression) or ignition characteristics (ignition module for the PC)
                    06 Shift Red,FCE, PCIII, IM, E Map, AIS removed, Airbox Mod, BMC filter, Smaller Flies, Full Yosh R77 Titanium, 16t, Speedo DRD, Penske 8983, 08 R1 forks and front brakes, Speigler brake lines, Easton EXP bars and risers, Copperdawg Speed Screen, Sargent seat, Givi rack and top case . . . . . . .

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                    • #25
                      Computer?? Whats that for?

                      If its runnin hot rejet it to richen it up. I'm old school and pretty ignorant about new tech computer stuff but I think the only variable on a two stroke would be fuel injection.

                      There's no variable valve timing and advancing the spark to ignite the fuel charge to maintain a controlled burn instead of detonation may help a little but the peak cylinder pressure will still be higher.

                      Ivan,
                      Am I all wet here?

                      Please critique/correct my logic

                      There are many differences to tuning an old 2 stroke vs. a modern 4 stroke....

                      The first place to look in a modern 4 stroke is to recognize what the manufacturer has done to make it pass emissions and where all the restrictions are to satisfy them and/or the insurance companies.

                      Once you have found everything, then you have a good place to start to begin to get a "base" to begin tuning.

                      Not completely understanding everything what the manufacturer has done first will lead you into a corner real fast.

                      2 strokes can be easily damaged if you do the wrong thing with them.... don't ever use a wideband to take exhaust readings under any circumstances... a lean part throttle setting achieved from a piece of shit wideband will quickly cause a seizure when 10% throttle is used going uphill even at 4000 rpm with oil injection.
                      The modern ones have preprogrammed advance curves in their igniter boxes and the older ones (fixed timing) are compromises... being not enough advance at low and mid rpms and over-advanced at high rpms... in order to make the older ones run better, is to overfuel them at high rpms so they don't ping themselves to death.

                      Generally modern 4 strokes run hot because of 2 things... lean fuel mixes and not enough advance in the right place.... fix both issues correctly and they are awesome.



                      And BTW Stoich is shit in plain english !!

                      Ivan
                      ivansperformanceproducts.com

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Guess you haven't heard of Arctic Cat's new 800 HO :-D
                        160 ponies right out of the crate. Its eating Ski Poos 800r for breakfast
                        How can it beat a Skidoo when it's in the shop all winter for recalls and Arctic Crap can't supply enough parts to keep up! Lol.
                        Jk! Obviously I'm a skidoo guy, the rivalry is legendary around here! Hope we get some snow this winter, last year sucked!

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                        • #27
                          Doesn't HD own AC now?

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